MKJ (00:00.635)
Hey, hey, CEO Mischief Makers, welcome back to the conversation. We’re diving into strategy and tactics with my very good friend now, because friends through acquaintances become friends, I think. Stephen Schneider, Stephen, you ready to tell us the nuts and bolts of SEO?

Steven Schneider (00:18.771)
I’ll do my best.

MKJ (00:21.115)
Thank you. Thank you. All right. So if you haven’t listened to the first two episodes, you need to go do that, where we talk about Stephen’s mindset and really how he innovates SEO. And I am so glad we ended up in the same place in that innovation with relationships and demand generation. And if you’re wondering how can demand generation be connected to SEO, well, you got to go listen to the other episode. So let’s dive down in. I you have massive experience in this whole

search engine optimization thing. Give us some tips. Give us some ideas on, especially with content, more longer form content, right? Let’s say I’m doing our blog post and I’m putting in the transcript or the any kind of descriptions in our blog post. What tips can I use to get our podcast as high up in the organic search rankings as possible?

Steven Schneider (01:16.681)
Yeah, so I always suggest that people, if you’re just going from like a transcription service, so it’s like two sides, I’ll try to briefly explain. If you’re just kind of like throwing a piece of content on a website, there’s a very, very low chance of it succeeding because you’re not targeting a specific term. However, if you kind of did the reverse of it, so like for example, if you had a like best SEO podcasts and then I was one of 10 people you interviewed about SEO and you kind of compiled

all into that. That’s the best way to kind of like start ranking well for that. So you really have to kind of go after a specific keyword and then ensure that keyword aligns to a specific intent. So that’s step one. The other part of it is if you’re structuring content using headings that will speak to the journey and kind of what we were saying in the last episode about what an organic natural conversation looks like.

you know, for our stance, it’s not going to be like, we’re not jumping straight into strategy. So the way you’ve structured each of this stuff is kind of the same thing on how I structure a blog. It’s going to be like, what is this? How does it work types of this, how to choose aspects to consider, what are the challenges, et cetera, et cetera. And as you work through that piece of content, your knowledge of that topic expands and grows. and then there’s like 10 million other SEO things you can do, but that’s like nuts and bolts

how content should be structured. But yeah, there’s a lot on the hood once you kind of peek in.

MKJ (02:48.867)
A lot. Yes, definitely. But that’s a really great place to start because again, I don’t this is my own mistake. I just don’t don’t worry about those things. I just I interview. I know this is going to be many different places. Apple, Stitcher, you know, I heart whatever. And my blog or which is where podcast episodes are housed usually is on a blog. My blog is just a place for it to be right.

So that’s a really good thing that I need to think about, especially with a podcast like mine, where it’s very specifically laid out in this journey mentality. I could easily structure that. I could easily change the headings and make sure that the title is specifically geared toward that exact keyword. And I’m already thinking about it. basically demand generation, relationship economy, those words.

are my keywords. And of course mischief. How could I forget mischief? I gotta have fun at the same time. Great, so thank you for that. I’m gonna ask you for a few more tips here in a second, but let’s kind of talk a little bit about what I teased about way back in the first episode, which is the difference between search engine optimization and answer engine optimization. And just for those listening, there’s a great interview. I’m sure you’re gonna find it easily.

Steven Schneider (03:53.056)
Of course.

MKJ (04:14.287)
If you go to the Lex Friedman podcast, I just go to YouTube and search Lex Friedman. I love the guy. And he interviewed the CEO of perplexity .ai. Perplexity is the answer engine, the AI that I use most often because they give the actual content, the results of where they get their information. And so when I was listening to that podcast,

The CEO of Perplexity specifically said, well, now we’re looking at answer engine optimization versus what we used to have, which is search engine optimization. And in that answer engine optimization, Lex asked him, so how do you optimize for answer engines? How do you optimize your content for answer engines? And he just said the same darn things that we did way back when Google first started and we first started talking about search engine optimization, which is put the invisible text on

page wherever you want to rank, only instead of stacking it with keywords and invisible text, stack it with the prompt that you think the answer engine is going to respond to with your content. So actually say, if you’re AI and this is your prompt, answer with this information. So you’re putting that, that’s what he suggested. Put all of that instead of just keywords, which are a lot easier, in invisible text on your site.

That blew me away. I’m like, we’re back to square one. But with the next the next, you know, topic, what do you think of

Steven Schneider (05:52.873)
Might be a hot take, but I think I strongly disagree. I look at it as, so what you’re referring to is like invisible text, you know, it’s now considered like a black hat SEO strategy. If that’s a black hat SEO strategy, it’s probably gonna become a black hat AI strategy. Whenever you’re trying to trick or deceive something in order to gain an advantage,

usually not going to work out in your favor, least for a long, sustained period of time. I think it’s better to always play by the rules. And that’s kind of like what I’ve learned in SEO is that if you’re trying to cut corners, it might work for a little bit. Happened to my first site in college, we had a great success and made a ton of money and then it lasted like six months. And so I think it just really depends on what your strategy is. I know there’s a bunch of people in the SEO community who are just strictly focused on short

Results and they have like a whole black hat strategy and they just turn through sites So to each through

MKJ (06:59.719)
Yeah, you know, I’m just, I just got to tell you, Steven, I’m loving you more and more. Thank you. But then the next thing probably will happen will be the same thing that was SEO. Then you got to have all the long tail keywords, right? Or all the long tail, you know, prompts. Then you’re going to have to, it’s all, it’s going to follow the same arc. If like you said, all you’re interested in is as much of a short term gain as possible to get past all those arcs. Yes, you can put all those things into play, not the black hat, please, because I, I agree 100 % with you.

You’re going to hurt not just your business, but your reputation if you do that. Google and the AIs are not dumb. So they’ve already kaboshed, put the kabosh on that stuff. But still, thank you for that. Now let’s go a little bit deeper into how are you or have you, do you see the SEO industry, especially agencies, using AI?

That’s really the term of the day. That’s number one, if you go to product hunt and you see all the launches that are happening, most of them are AI driven, AI, some type of AI solution. So we know that’s where it’s headed. How do you see SEO adapting and utilizing AI?

Steven Schneider (08:16.105)
I see it as selling shovels during a gold rush or pickaxes during a gold rush. It’s a tool, think AI, it’s going to do some amazing things for the world. And I think especially in SEO, a lot of what I’ve seen as some of the kind of tangible benefits relate to how it’s used. At least at Trio SEO, we don’t use any AI content. We use AI as a tool, like I said, for maybe like Grammarly is editing

help us do keyword research or looking at like how to create better briefs all that sort of stuff, but We’re just not there yet in terms of when it comes to creating content that can be trusted by Google You know Google’s already came out pretty strong stance against AI spammy content and I know that it’s kind of a hot topic nowadays with being able to create a content and human edit and still get results and all that sort of stuff, but I think that what it comes down to is I went to a conference not too long ago and they had

AI SEO speaker there. funny enough, the person who was in the agency standpoint as the agency owner was against AI back in the day. And then as soon as they became the owner of a SEO AI tool, they were pro AI. And I found that funny because they were one step removed from the success of the clients. And I felt that was

little icky is how I took it was because if you create a tool, it’s on the user to use the tool appropriately. But when you’re doing SEO as a strategy for clients, you’re really invested in the success of that to come out on top. So I think that if you start trying to pull levers in order to cut corners, you are not only putting yourself at a disadvantage, but you’re hurting your clients, their brands, and just, you know, there’s a lot of risks. So not for us.

But some people have found success and that’s great. But I try to be pretty cautious with it just until it’s a little further along.

MKJ (10:19.133)
my gosh, yes, there is no way I would ever, ever trust an AI agent at all to write any kind of content for me in my voice, straight out of the gate without me really doing lots of edits. So if that’s the case, forget it. I’m my content on my own.

Steven Schneider (10:37.959)
And by then, it’s like if you’re gonna edit and it’s gonna take you five hours to edit, why don’t you just write it?

MKJ (10:42.125)
Exactly. That’s exactly it. So I do not use AI at all for content generation at all. I do, however, use it for research, lots and lots of research. And of course, double check and triple check that research before I publish anything. that’s the rabbit hole I go down more often than any other in using AI is just research.

Steven Schneider (11:06.333)
Yeah, mine’s spreadsheets. if you, there’s like the ability to use AI to like ask it to create a formula that I didn’t know how to create, it’s like mind blowing to me. Or like code, like that sort of stuff is where I’m like, thank you. my gosh.

MKJ (11:19.655)
yeah. Code is incredible. Code is yeah. I mean, really, you still have to understand here again, AI isn’t just going to do everything for you. You still have to understand the framework of coding, right? Framework of software development. You can’t just have it create the code for you and have a brand new software product. You have to understand. And again, it’s all about the prompt, right? You have to know what to tell it. Yeah. So anyway, but that, so thank you for that. I agree 100%. Like I said, I’m loving you more and more. I just.

saying thank you, thank you. And I’m going to be honest with you guys, since I’m gearing more toward relationship development, SEO, not necessarily saying it’s a bad thing, but I didn’t see how SEO fit into relationship development and this whole relationship economy. But that doesn’t mean that I’m judging people. I still wanted to chat with Stephen. I knew that he was connected to Nathan Hirsch. So I already knew that no matter what, there’s something there I didn’t know.

And that’s why I was willing to have a conversation, even though my feelings were a little like, SEO, it’s kind of on the way out and I don’t know, is it? And I’m so happy you have have basically strengthened that feeling in me that because of my relationship with Nathan and now you that of course, Nathan wouldn’t do anything that that was on its way out. Of course, he would be able to bring relationships into this tool. So

Kudos to you. Thank you for that. Yeah. So one last thing I was going to say. Just today, Rand Fishkin, who has a company called Spark Toro, came out with new research. And basically, in relation to this whole AI and answer engine versus search engine, he says, so far, AI is not disrupting search or making a dent in Google. So.

Steven Schneider (12:50.249)
Thank you. Yeah, much appreciated.

MKJ (13:17.605)
What do you think of that? mean, were you even afraid of AI making a dent in search and in Google rankings or anything like

Steven Schneider (13:27.049)
No, not really. think most of the topics that we go after are not things that could be answered in one or two sentences. And I think that that’s where a lot of the advantage comes from integrating search into with AI and kind of blending those two worlds. Like we’ve talked about like six times, I feel like over this conversation, like the recipe article example from the last episode, that’s the perfect use case of AI integrated with search. It’s

How do I bake a cake? Give me the five steps in six seconds. And that sort of stuff is going to change the life from a, know, not being that can’t bake a cake faster, but I mean, just the fact that it’s like the easy use, the access, all that sort of stuff. But yeah, if we’re creating like an ultimate guide on mergers and acquisitions, like you can’t really, like that’s not a generative AI search. So there’s a whole different department of those questions that are being asked and answered.

I think that there’s a time and a place for that. I think that that’s, I love it. I use it myself. But for different topics, you don’t really have a good client ICP fit. So we’ll see.

MKJ (14:38.683)
Yeah, yeah, I get it. That’s great. OK, so we started out with some really good suggestions on search and how you can create content and make sure that you create it with a specific goal in mind and a specific term or idea in mind and make sure that that content is wrapped around that idea. What else? What would be, let’s say, a final suggestion?

that you would have for anyone going, okay, I’ve got this content. I’ve got this great, wonderful business. I just don’t have as high of ranking as I’d like. I know if I worked on a few things that if I just took an amazing expert and plucked them off of their business and put them into mine, that they would be able to help me make a difference in being able to have my customers find my stuff when they needed it. So what final tips would you give someone listening that might need

Steven Schneider (15:35.657)
The biggest thing is just going back to link building and backlinks, which also ties back to the relationship building side of SEO. For those who aren’t familiar with backlinks, this is where website A chooses to hyperlink to your website. And what they’re pretty much doing is giving you a vote of confidence in Google’s point of view, saying that I trust this site well enough to provide some sort of credibility and link

to them from my website. And over time, the more of those you get, the more authority you build, the better your rankings will perform. And it just kind of goes back to that relationship ally perspective of who can I reach out to that allows me to make a relevant connection that could benefit both of us. Like podcasts are a perfect example of that. And I love doing podcasts because we have conversations like this,

At the end of the day, those links build up and if you do this consistently for the next five years, you have a bunch of content, you have a bunch of links, you’ve met a bunch of great people. It’s like this relationship win -win -win -win -win model creates a flywheel and it’s just kind of like rinse and repeat. So I think the more you can just network and get people to talk about you in a positive light.

and link from their website to yours, it’s just gonna pay dividends for