MKJ (00:00.558)
Hey, hey, CEO, Mischief Makers. Welcome back to the conversation with my friend, Peter Lasoski of iProlio and the framework and tool relatable. All right, so Pete, in the beginning, we talked about the first episode, we talked about the mindset shift between lead generation and demand generation, the mindset shift between the awareness economy or attention economy and relationship economy.

Now let’s get a little deeper in that and talk about how you and Relatable specifically are innovating that type of marketing to help people be, well, for lack of a better word, there is no better word, be relatable. So take us through a little bit how you’ve taken that idea of demand generation and relationship economy and really encapsulated it into a framework and a tool with Relatable. How did you do that?

What did you, why did you come up with video relationships?

Peter Lisoskie (01:00.31)
Well, you know, the first thing is, and guys, have a, if you ever want to come join, we have a sub stack. If you look up, be relatable on our sub stack. It’s our community there. I, Mary and I have written some articles there. I got to do some more for you guys. But you know, one the things there’s, I wrote an article in there. It’s called the seven unwavering truths. One of them is, you know, we’re on the internet. It’s a international right. Everybody has a right on the internet.

Cell phones are ubiquitous. 96 % of the global population has cell phones. But there’s another one and it’s called everybody wants personal and relevant these days. So guys think about this, right? You look out there and you look at what’s happened. I, the other thing too is, you know, I do talk up there about the clash between the two types of,

people out there now, the native analogs, these are pre -internets, the native digitals, these are post -internets. Most of them were born with a cell phone in their hand yet, they’re 51 % of the global population now. So they’re driving, that’s the movement, part of the movement that’s driving these things. But one thing I will say about this, as it relates to what you asked me is,

You know, if you look at that, the personal irrelevant and the other unwavering truth is everybody is watching or listening these days. This is why podcasts are growing and have existence. But video is also growing at a dramatic rate. And I will say, look, here’s the thing. I have a radio show. I’ve had it for 16 years. It’s on the Bonneville network.

I can paint pictures with words, I can create demand, but I cannot do it with as richness and as familiarity and as building relationship and trust as I can with video because you can actually see me. Okay. And there’s a big difference in what’s going on in the brain. So if you look out there, Mary, you got you to, I like YouTube, you know, you can look up what, anything you want to learn how to do it’s on YouTube. We all know that. Right.

Peter Lisoskie (03:07.696)
So, and then there’s TikTok. TikTok has value, you know, for entertainment and there’s some good information, things depending on what you scroll through and watch. But the thing is, guys, think about this. This is another common sense thing. In those, they’re all, and same thing with LinkedIn, they’re all passive videos. And what happens is, passive videos beget or create passive viewers.

You know, it’s a watch and forget. I watch, move on, right? There’s no interaction, there’s no engagement, there’s no trust or relationship building. And by the way, if you look at LinkedIn videos, which now they’re coming out with a new thing that’s more like shorts and portrait style, you look at TikTok or you look at YouTube shorts or you look at YouTube, you are nothing but a set of eyeballs and IP address.

Why do they do that? Because they want to put ads in front of you. That is the business model of the analog implanted from radio and TV ad days that Mary’s talked about in posts. We plopped it right onto the internet. And we said, that’s how we’re going to do business. Yet.

These native digitalists are going, uh -uh, we’re not doing this anymore. I reject email marketing. I’m rejecting funnels. I’m rejecting all this social stuff. I’m building interaction and community. And by the way, if you have 20 something kids,

MKJ (04:21.37)
No.

MKJ (04:28.534)
ads.

Peter Lisoskie (04:35.702)
They’re Native Digitals, they don’t do email. They’re going, why would I do email? I have a community. You have a couple boys about that age, Mary. The thing is, they’ll just take their community somewhere else and people will follow. The other thing about Native Digitals

MKJ (04:46.564)
Yeah.

Peter Lisoskie (04:49.536)
They look at the world totally different. Their primary reality is the digital space. They’re tourists in the physical reality. Analogs, our primary reality is physical. We’re tourists in the digital. Hence the clash. A native digital will never come up to your door and knock on the door and go, hi, I’m here. They’ll sit in their car and they will text you. Guys, if you’re laughing, it’s because this is common sense and you know it to be true. And the other thing, by the way, if you have kids that are native digitals, where do they all

MKJ (05:14.714)
True.

Peter Lisoskie (05:19.58)
out they do video games they have friends around the world they hang out discord and they talk to each other that’s a native digital and you may not relate to it but think about

MKJ (05:25.7)
Yep. Yep.

Peter Lisoskie (05:31.222)
going way back your ancestors, your grandfathers who are running around on horses could relate to Henry T. when he came out with Ford. I mean guys, we have had these shifts from the agriculture to the industrial age to the knowledge worker age and we’re moving into the wisdom age of wisdom here in the next few years. The thing is there’s always going to be these transitions. It’s understanding, okay, what is actually going on in these mega trends of transitions and what do I need to do to be able

MKJ (05:40.826)
That’s right.

Peter Lisoskie (06:01.138)
Thank

be propel myself forward within that transition. That’s all I’m saying. So, you know, if you have the choice between a passive viewer that’s just an IP address and eyeballs to as a business owner or one that you could bring into your relatable world and make them active, engage them, send… I mean in awareness, you’re not going to click their email or phone number. You’re going to send them somewhere. Like I did, send them to sub stack. Send them somewhere. Look, I’ll give you a story.

of this. So on LinkedIn, just about two weeks ago, was telling Mary this story.

So there’s a lady that she actually because of our we’re going to talk about this because of our unique point of view and our change of perspective on my banner I talk about future proof your business get a predictable stream. She messaged me was actually a video or audio thing in the DM and she said hey that’s really cool future proof that makes total sense to me and relatable that’s like the perfect name for your product for interactive video relationships. You know I know a lot of people and I’d love

be able to talk with you about this and get you introduced to some of these business owners. So I wrote her back, well first I went and looked her up, I didn’t realize that she had over 800 ,000 connections on LinkedIn. I was like, wow, that’s a pretty big person here. So I did a message back on audio, which you can only do on mobile, right on LinkedIn. And then nothing. Crickets.

Peter Lisoskie (07:33.216)
So I followed her posts and you know, she does, she has really good content. I really like what she has to say. She’s trying to create her own impact and movement in the world. And so yesterday I said, you know what? I’m gonna do, cause look, know, Mary knows this. In my company, we all say, you gotta eat your own dog food. I’m the dog at your door. And the thing is, I

You know, the thing is, I wanted to create a tool like Relatable for myself and by the way, happens, you you guys, it’s really good for all of you business people too. So, what I did is I created a personal.

Relatable interactive. Now here’s it’s very simple. It was a short one. It was a clip we call clips It was maybe a minute and a half. All I did was say hey, this is the guy behind the profile You’re seeing me. I want to thank you for your content. This is why I comment on your content I really like what you’re trying to do. You did mention all I said was you did mention you’d like to speak to me and You know find out a little bit more about relatable interactive video relationships and by the way at the end when I get done talking

and there’s gonna be a little button there, just tap on it, you can set an appointment. Inexperience, it was just a simple, relatable. Took me four minutes to create maybe. And that’s from turning the camera on to shooting it out the door. It was a direct message to her.

Well guess what? I have a meeting with her tomorrow because of that personalized approach. See, this goes way beyond some of those ones you see in your email where they’re doing personalized videos. They’re not interactive. Yeah, the person shows up but you can’t do anything except for maybe send them a video back. We create whole interactive experiences. I mean, you think about it take beyond that. You know, I’m not a big believer in email but if I’m gonna do email or email marketing campaign, I’m gonna make it an interactive relatable

MKJ (09:09.146)
Yeah, right.

Peter Lisoskie (09:25.294)
experience where emails no longer email. It’s a relatable interactive experience. that kind of is the, I guess the, hopefully that answered your question in a longer format.

MKJ (09:26.254)
Right, right, right, right.

MKJ (09:35.574)
Yes, it did. And so and I want to take it a little bit deeper because I also know that you have a ton of experience in brain science and brain research and how we interact with each other and the different centers of the brain and parts of the brain that are the impulse to either buy or not buy or build relationships or dopamine and you know, the whole little red dot to you, we feel like we have to get rid of that little red dot, you know, they they made it that way for a reason. But you understand

all those reasons behind it. this is why I think and this is the part that I love about innovation. You were the perfect person to create this framework and product because of all of that previous knowledge and experience, not just the brain research, but also your software development, also the team dynamics that you have, also working in large corporations that are specifically designed

for lead generation and sales rather than relationships. So all of that culminated into that time when you’re standing in front of the mirror going, there’s gotta be a better way, right? That’s kind of the crux of it. There’s gotta be a better way. So talk a little bit about that whole idea of how you innovated interactive video relationships with also the component of your previous experience and all of that brain research.

Peter Lisoskie (11:00.31)
Yeah, yeah, Mary’s right. I’ll just tell you the quick story behind that. was my last gig, I think, in the semi -corporal world. was the vice president of product strategy for consulting firm up in Seattle. And we did these, I created this innovative week -long approach. We worked with a lot of companies that did science solutions. So.

Brilliant scientists. CEOs typically were scientists, but they didn’t really know how to productize something and take it to market. We did, right? So we took them through this week long thing. going back, look, I’ve worked with Harvard, MIT, voice of the customer, customer experience, all this blah, blah, blah, blah,

Right. So, you know, I was up there and I was doing my talk. We had gotten into, we had a whole war room. It’s like a week long thing. And we basically go from the point zero to having a complete plan with project management, everything at the end of how they’re going to execute this thing. So we were in the part where it was talking about, okay, how are you going to connect to your customers and things like that? And Mary, if I’d forget, I want to talk about ICPs, ideal customer

and buyer persona because I think that’s a bunch of pile of baloney too so anyway

MKJ (12:14.756)
Yep. Yep.

Peter Lisoskie (12:15.782)
So we were there and I noticed back in the corner, Mary, there was a couple of guys that were looking at each other smiling and kind of whispering to each other, which caught my eye. These guys were here with this, it was a brain assay type company. So at the coffee break, I go back to these guys and I’m like, hey, I introduced myself and I said, I noticed you guys were talking, we were talking about voice of the customer and stuff like that. And they looked at me and they said, Peter, we’re sorry to tell you, know, they introduced

There are a couple of neuroscientists and they said, we’ve done a lot of fMRI studies and some EEG studies and that’s people do not buy based on benefits and features. They buy based on emotion what happens in the reward circuit of the brain. I went, really?

I said, do you guys want go to the Met and have a steak and drinks and let’s talk? So I took them out that night for three hours and what they told me about, and they showed me, they had some data in their briefcases. I about fell out of my chair because, you know, I’m an engineer. I understand tech to some degree, but I’m going.

man, these guys have got like the ultimate, well at that time I was thinking sales, the ultimate sales thing where you can get inside of the brain because people are buying based on emotion. They’re not buying based on benefits, right? That’s the neocortex. The reward circuit, the nucleus incumbents, this is where the dopamine and the addictive effects, whether you’re a drug addict or a alcoholic, but it’s the same thing for social with the red dot like Mary was talking about, right? So I went out in the trenches, I had another company at

MKJ (13:28.676)
Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Lisoskie (13:51.732)
time. And in 22 months, I built my company Marriott from 1 .4 million to 6 .6 million. And I… It was because I crafted this… I called it the buying mood blueprint. It’s out there. I think about 10 ,000 people have taken the course online now. I never wrote the book. I’m working on the book as I have time. But the point I’m making is on this is this is… This leads to you know, some things happening in today’s world.

And that is number one, I can write emails to persuade people. I can evoke emotion in emails, but I cannot develop a relationship with an email. It’s impossible. You cannot do that. I know because of the brain research I’ve done, the brain science and research and things like that that I’ve done. So, you know, if I look at things and I say, based on relationships, Mary.

Yes, have dopamine. Dopamine is a motivator to get people to do things. It can be good or bad, like the red dot, like put your phone down, quit being so addicted to social and being so addicted to phones. That’s dopamine addiction in the nucleus and comas of the brain. And we kind of need to knock that off. Social has created that. But if I look at it and guys go, okay, in the relationship economy with relatable, what do I want to elicit? Well, I want to create oxytocin and glutamate in the brain.

MKJ (15:07.972)
Right.

Peter Lisoskie (15:19.206)
Oxytocin is what they call the love hormone. It’s a neurotransmitter. And basically it is what when you have a significant other.

when you are with that person, oxytocin is being dumped into your brain. It’s a bonder. Guys, if you’ve ever gone through a divorce or breakup, you’ll understand because that oxytocin goes away. That’s where that pain comes from. It’s in your brain. So oxytocin, there’s ways to do that. Relatable and the framework of being relatable, right? So when we talk about the framework, I wrote a book on this as part of our platform.

Being relatable means being genuine, being authentic, having transparency, showing vulnerability. All those four words create what? Oxytocin in the brain. Because people go, man, I can relate to you. And this is exactly why we call the product relatable.

MKJ (16:11.64)
Yeah, and if they

That’s right. That’s right. And if they don’t, they go away. And that’s great because that would if we tried to sell to the people that don’t relate to what we’re talking about, that’s where we’re going to get the buyer’s remorse and the I don’t like this and all that because we persuaded them to do something that didn’t relate to them. Wow. So I’m sorry, I interrupted your your story. Keep going.

Peter Lisoskie (16:19.894)
Yeah.

Peter Lisoskie (16:39.426)
Well, yeah, the only thing I have to add is glutamate. Now, guys, you hear all these, I don’t know if you know, Yasmin Ali, cool guy. I follow his stuff on, he’s got, I don’t know, a

hundred thousand, two hundred fifty thousand. He was just hanging out with Ferrari. I think they’re gonna be doing some business together or something. But anyway, the thing about him, he was talking about you know and a lot of people do this. The blah blah blah. You got to write stories. Stories create emotion. Story but you know here’s the thing guys. What happens in the brain is when you are telling a story it produces glutamate. Glutamate works with a hippocampus which helps you to remember and recall

the stories that you have created. Think about guys, go back, another common sense thing. You go back to the cave person days. What did they, before written language, what did they do? They told stories. Native indigenous tribes told stories. Why? Because glutamate helps you remember them. You can recall them and pass them on to generations. This is exactly why telling stories is so powerful. Now, I will tell you this though. With glutamate, there’s a downside. Glutamate, if you do a lot of negative emotions tied to a story,

actually create cell apoptosis which kills the cells in your body. Which causes illness, cancers and things like that. So this is you know, there’s a lot of power in these different things and you got to be careful about how you’re using it in the right way. You know, one of my biggest heroes and mentors is Joseph Campbell. If you think about the hero’s journey, what he created and the power of myth. I got those VHS tapes back in the I don’t early

from my mom for Christmas one year. But you know, it’s so powerful the whole idea of the hero’s journey. You look at Toy Story, Monsters Inc, the Star Wars, the whole franchise is all built. In fact, what’s his name? Star Wars. He knew Joseph Campbell. They were friends. Yeah, George Lucas. George Lucas in Joseph Campbell’s Lifetime Achievement Awards came up and said,

MKJ (18:21.988)
came

MKJ (18:33.604)
Yes. Yes.

George Lucas. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Peter Lisoskie (18:46.614)
when he was talking about Joseph Campbell. If it wasn’t for Joseph Campbell, I would have never been able to deliver Star Wars when I did. It probably would have never been created.

MKJ (18:57.432)
Yeah. Yep. Those are my favorite interviews of Joseph Campbell was when he’s at Lucas Studios or actually at what does he call it? But anyway, his ranch Skywalker Ranch, that’s it. When he’s at Skywalker Ranch being interviewed for that PBS special, that’s my memory of Joseph Campbell and I got those on tape and it’s powerful. It’s absolutely powerful. So that that’s why I wanted you to talk about that because all of

Peter Lisoskie (19:07.24)
That was brilliant.

Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Lisoskie (19:18.668)
Yeah.

MKJ (19:26.532)
has basically culminated in this product now, your previous experiences that you just outlined in a quick story, your software knowledge, your wanting to build relationships and have a movement towards something. And that I think we all around that COVID time just got fed up with the way things were done. And we basically had to say, there’s got to be a better way. And all of that previous experience culminated into

innovating this space with this new framework and product. And as I say, it continues to evolve. It continues to grow because you constantly ask what else is possible. If you said, this is it, this is it, we’ve got it. It would be static and it would be passe very, very quickly. But you specifically say, what else is possible? What else can we do? This product has innovated.

just in the last six months because you keep asking that question what else is possible so any other ideas on innovation because that i think those those key internal patterns that you have with you know i’m i there’s got to be a better way and what else is possible all of those things are what allow you to create innovative products so any other last words on innovation

Peter Lisoskie (20:51.552)
Yeah, last words on innovation, the way I look at it, and Mary asked me this years ago, there’s some key components. Number one, you gotta have clarity. I fight for it every day. Mary asked me one time, how do you define success? Way back, I think in her first podcast, and I said it’s clarity. Second is, you have to strive, not better, different.

what can I do that’s different that aligns with megatrends but is also based… I want to do things based on timeless foundations of human beings. I’ve traveled all over the world and I don’t well you know I’m not some guru guy. I just have watched and I’ve observed and you know different cultures and extremely different from the United States and going wow there’s some similarities here. Third, the last thing to leave is

You lot of this, you ask the question, what else is possible? It’s a part innovation with a sprinkle of inspiration. And I’ve told Mary this several times. Innovation is based on your previous experiences and the puzzle pieces you put together in your life. But then out of nowhere comes this inspiration. And if someone knows where the hell that comes from, let me know because I’ve never been able to figure that out. That’s a lifelong endeavor. I’m like Joseph Campbell for myth and the power of myth. Trying to figure out where does inspiration come from, but we all

had it and we all have been hit by these ideas and it’s like wow that’s really cool and it’s not all based on experience some of it’s totally unrelated and so anyway that’s what I want to leave with you guys with that’s kind of how this stuff happens and how we create things that we do different things into the world that can create these impacts and movements.