MKJ 
All right, CEO, makers, here we go. One of my favorite things in the world, the rubber meets the road. We’re down at ground level or in the weeds. We talk about details. I love the mindset. I love innovation, but it doesn’t mean anything and thus can apply it. So welcome to the conversation again. Welcome back. My friend, Aaron Hassan. Aaron, you ready to dive into details now?

Aaron Hassen 
All right, CEO, make sure everything’s here this is the best part. Let’s actually make something happen now, right?

MKJ 
Yes, we’ve got to set the stage, right? It’s like a play. We’ve got to set the stage, get the character set, and now let’s do the thing. All right, so we’ve talked about relationships, word of mouth, trust, selling or marketing to people like you want to be marketed to, human connection, all those things are really the foundations that we build upon. So now.

Aaron Hassen 
and connection, all those things, really the foundation.

So now, not marketing, not a market. There’s a company, as a user, a new company, they are having, they’ve been in, adapted their product, and they’re like, how do we look at people? Talk about three stages, awareness, affinity, and then, how do you, what do you, what is your plan, what is the strategy? Or, you know, where they are in their.

MKJ
Looking at marketing, go to market. Let’s say there’s a company who has either a new product or they have innovated and adapted their product and they’re like, okay, how do we let people know? You talked about three stages, awareness, affinity, and then actual getting to the actual relationship. What do you do? What is your plan? What is the typical strategy to take a consumer through that or meet the consumer where they are in their research process?

to get them to understand that you have their solution.

Aaron Hassen 
I’m done.

I use some frameworks and I want to share those with people, with other marketers, with founders and CEOs, because there are some incredible frameworks out there. But before I share those frameworks, really the way this comes to me at A .H. Marketing, so I was, as I mentioned previously, I was a founder whose company was acquired four years later. And then I got into marketing because I really liked the marketing piece.

of what I was doing in my company and I like that aspect of business. And so I dove in and for 20 years I have led marketing for B2B startups, often venture backed, Silicon Valley, Y Combinator. So these are pressure cooker situations. We have to drive results very quickly and efficiently. And so that’s been my experience.

I come to the marketing problem or problems from that perspective. And so what often happens and the reason that companies often need a marketer like me or a fractional marketing team like A .H. Marketing to come in and help them out is because they sense that there’s a poor product market fit or their pipelines have dried up or their salespeople are feeling unsupported or

They’re seeing lower than average contract values and they can’t figure out what’s going on. You know, there’s limited revenue streams. So the company’s at risk. Investors don’t like it. Like we can’t put all our eggs in one basket. Their messaging is just not resonating with buyers. You know, these are some of the symptoms that often indicate that you need strategic marketing support. But you don’t just need strategic marketing support. Oftentimes,

Aaron Hassen
You want somebody that’s not just going to do the thinking and the strategy and the planning, but somebody who can execute. And again, we talked last time about that’s exactly what age marketing does. As a founder myself, I was looking to replicate myself. I didn’t have enough time. I was looking for partners within my business that can take the ball and run. And so that was a critical piece of it. And so you need a marketer.

that is both a strategist but also an operator. Oftentimes these companies, I have found, lose track of who they are. We see the downstream effects. We see the pipeline dry up. We see the low conversion rates and things like that, but oftentimes they’ve lost track of who they are when that product market fit goes out and then they don’t know what to do. They don’t know how next to innovate.

We go back because the GPS is off and we have to get back to the core DNA and why they exist in the first place, why customers buy from them, what makes them special. And you do this by actually listening. You go and talk to customers. You go and talk to internal sales team who interface with customers, your client success team who interface with customers. You talk to partners. You have to figure out what’s going on out there. And as I mentioned last time,

You know, the very definition of a marketer is the fact that you understand the market and the market is your customer and it is what is happening in the marketplace, the trends and the forces shaping the marketplace. Without that information and insight, you don’t have much to offer your company. So, you know, we go and figure out the market, we start to listen and that’s the first step. You really need to listen. So we go through positioning.

with all of our clients. I don’t care what you’re doing and what your needs are. If you work with A .H. Marketing, we’re going to start you off with positioning because I need and you need, your team needs to align around what is your core DNA? Who is the customer? What’s impacting them today? What do they really care about? What are their problems? How are you positioned against the competition? You’re great at this, but we look at category as well.

Aaron Hassen
category design. And as we said, the context of the market and the forces that are shaping it, you’ve got to be relevant. If, you know, product market fit issues are often an issue of relevancy, you’re just no longer relevant. So let’s get back to who, you know, who you are as a company, how you can serve your customer. Let’s get your team aligned around a singular vision and goals. We talked about that movie 300.

and the Spartans. And if you can just get 300 soldiers to act together, you can rule the world. You can conquer greater armies. This is so key is that alignment and getting that relevance back again. So we use frameworks to do that. The positioning framework I really enjoy and love and have used for many years is a 6C framework by Andy Cunningham. She launched the Mac with Steve Jobs. She’s repositioned Oracle and Blackberry and

a lot of Silicon Valley. She’s a legend out there in the movie. They call her the other Andy. So if you’re ever watching some of those Steve Jobs movies, there’s Andy Hertzfeld, who was the product guy. Then there was the other Andy, who was lead communicator for Steve Jobs and worked with him at Apple, Pixar, Next, all those. I learned from her. She brought me out to Wyoming. She taught me her framework herself, and I use it, and it’s powerful.

But I also use other frameworks too, because once you get positioning down, you then need to actually start looking at your messaging architecture. Now, how are you going to communicate your business to the wider world and connect yourself to the problems that exist so that you can be relevant? They want to know who you are and why you matter to them. So you’ve got to figure out that. And then I go from there. So we start with positioning, we go to messaging.

But then, you know, we actually get into systems and processes within the business to build the foundation, what I call, you know, the lead engine or the opportunity engine. Then we start to run tests and campaigns and, and listen and to get feedback. Cause you know, what you think, you know, upfront often changes during testing. You start to, to adapt and evolve and, and then we do this process about every six months because the market changes on you every six months.

Aaron Hassen 
So, you know, I know I’ve said a lot there but in a nutshell, you know, that’s how we that’s how we do it

MKJ 
Yeah, that’s wonderful. That’s fantastic. Because what you said, I mean, we brought in a dating analogy. You brought in a dating analogy. And if you think about that, I haven’t never dated. I’m just, well, I think I had one date or two dates when I was in high school. But I’ve been married to my husband since I was 19 and 19 and a half and been with him since I was 16. So I’ve never dated. I’m not speaking from experience here, okay, except for the fact that I’ve raised two sons and they are dating because, what you said, I mean, we’ve gone into dating and…

If you think about that, I have never dated. I’ve been married to my husband with him. I’m not experience here. Okay. Except for the fact that I raised sons and they are dating because thank goodness they did not as long as I did thank goodness they did not start as young as I did. But when you bring that analogy in and you think about the best way to put yourself forward in this sense to a customer, a potential customer or consumer, is to know yourself.

You can’t go attract other people and think you’re just going to sell yourself to them. You have to work on yourself. You have to know who you are. You have to have a core that’s strong. You have to know what you stand for and what you stand against. Otherwise, you’re going to attract the wrong person. So it’s the same in business. What you talked about with knowing yourself and go back to the DNA and the cat and why you did this to begin with. Many times we lose sight of that because we get so caught up in those other things. We have to record things. I love what you said about that. I love what you said about positioning. I absolutely love everything you said about putting together that framework. Now in terms of tools, because I know there are lots of them and many, many more coming on the scene every day and many drifting off every day, AI is huge lots of MarCom types of products and tools. How do you evaluate tools based on what you uncover in that positioning and that process?

Aaron Hassen 
Yeah, the tools change depend on the challenge. And so you gotta, you know, once you can understand your customer and understand who you are and that means so much more than the tools. The tools are just a function of then how you actually, you know, go to market and, you know, get communications in front of customers. And you have to use tools to do that. And the tools and the channels that you choose,

are different based on the challenge that’s in front of you and who your market is. So, I talked earlier about, I’ve served different markets from hospitality to retail to automotive and all that, and the tools were different. The channels to the customer were very, very different. And so, I like to think of tools. It’s that next piece after you’ve developed the positioning, the messaging.

and then you’re building the systems and that lead engine, that opportunity engine. Now you need the tools that are going to help you actually go to market, like I said. So, you know, I often look at capabilities. Here’s what I need to do. What can this tool do? And how do I validate that? So, you know, now I’m a customer all of a sudden and evaluating tools out there and using word of mouth to figure out the truth.

and whether or not that’s going to work for me in particular, because I can go to G2 and check out the reviews and sometimes maybe some of those are gamed. We’re paying people to put reviews out there that are positive. But what I really will do is talk to my own counterparts and say, tell me more about that tool. And even though it may have worked for them and their specific use does not mean it’ll work for me and my use, it may not be the best tool for me.

But yeah, we go to research and we try to figure out what is going to be the best tool. And there are good tools based on the phase of company that you are. Like small businesses shouldn’t necessarily be using Salesforce, for instance. I mean, come on, the amount of capital and maintenance and things it takes to keep the hygiene of Salesforce up to date.

Aaron Hassen
to set it up and configure it. It’s become a very bloated and complex tool. I know a lot of people that are moving off of it, in fact. HubSpot has expanded their tool to act more like Salesforce, to pick up the pieces and do things on the sales side. They’ve got the sales hub. They’ve got all kinds of hubs now, but they’re all trying to be platforms that we use.

across, rather than having individual tools, they want us to use them as an omni -tool. I just need to value what’s best. For instance, we started working with a telecom company. They do both texting, phone, video, communications for customers. We started looking at, well, what phase are they?

in the, you know, how sophisticated a tool do we really need right now. And so, you know, rather than going with something like a Salesforce or a HubSpot, which are very, which, which I use for my other clients, for this particular client, we said, you know what, Brevo is an outstanding tool. And, you know, it can do all the things we need at this stage at the cost that we, that’s, that’s really good. And that’s, you know, economical. And so you tend to analyze the tools based on.

you know, the need and then the stage of the company and the budget and all of that. Because again, I’m marketing like an owner. I want to be a good steward of my resources. And so I want to spend their money like it’s my own.

MKJ
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then it’s so I love that process. You start with positioning, you go to messaging, then you go to the actual implementation strategy. And how are you going to create those opportunities or leads, however the company is looking at it. And it is more opportunities now with word of mouth and, and those kinds of things, rather than just capturing leads and putting them into a process. So I love all of that. And then definitely the tools are the last step. When I had my agency,

Aaron Hassen 
It is.

MKJ 
and I was building chatbots, it was, there were a few clients that were actually partners like that, where, because I didn’t just build chatbots, I actually developed their messaging and their strategy for how to market their products through this, through communication. And there were a few clients that were partners like that. Majority of them just wanted the tool to be implemented. They just wanted me to get enough leads in there so that they got their webinar filled so that they could sell. Which is a

is a purpose for, you know, it’s business, you got to make money. But that’s not what I liked. That’s not a good use of my time. So to be able to take that first step, because that’s all you’re really talking about, instead of me having an agency, it’s now a consultancy, so that not only can you strategize about what to do the positioning, messaging and the actual opportunity creation, but also you can implement

Aaron Hassen 
So.

MKJ 
that. And that’s what you’re doing.

Aaron Hassen
Yeah, we do. And there’s a difference. And I think what you’re alluding to opportunities versus leads, I would just want to touch on that real quick because if you’re marketing like an owner, owners care about customer lifetime value. We care about not only, you know, obtaining the customer, but keeping that customer and, and how, and having them expand over time. So when you come to marketing with that view that I’m looking for my best customer,

not just anyone. I want a customer that’s going to, that we can sell at a lower cost, right? Like I want to bring in the best customer that’s not only going to stay a while, but that costs my business less to actually put on the platform, but also maintain. And so we have to think about it from all aspects. You know, it’s, there can be customers that you go after, but they just require a lot of your time, energy, effort.

resources. And while on the front end, you know, if you’re just counting numbers from a quantity standpoint, they all seem to look the same, not to a founder, not to an investor, not to the CFO. You know, there are differences between customers and that is, you know, we have to think of profit margin, we have to think of expenses and lots of other things in terms of, you know, how do you

Like I said, how do you take care of that customer? And then is that how long is that customer going to stay? Like, you know, we’re going to invest X amount into them just to onboard them and to get them on. But then, you know, how long will they stay with us? Will they, will they tell other people about us? So, you know, from the front end, you want to look for the best customer that’s going to come in at the lowest cost and, and pay the most because they have the most value. They value your product in such a way.

that it really meets their needs. I mean, you’re looking for that sweet spot and in that ideal customer. And so, you know, that’s what we try and focus on and build from there. And I think that solves a lot of later issues where companies start to the product team as an issue, the customer success team. There’s all these downstream issues from marketers just trying to add logos in terms of quantity and salespeople just trying to get a commission.

Aaron Hassen (01:00:21.074)
no matter what type of customer they bring in the door and hand over to client success. All of that impacts the business. And so we have to care about that on the front end as well and do right by our team members, do right by our business, do right by the customer. So we’re bringing in the right type of customer that we can help. And that’s going to be satisfied and happy over the long term.

MKJ 
Yeah, there’s a new term, I agree 100%. There’s a new term that I heard the other day that kind of combines these, these ideas and it, it’s customer community. So basically, we’re talking about is community development is finding people who are super consumers who are part of our community who align very well. And we don’t have to convince them. We don’t have to try and persuade them. They get it. And those are the ones you’re talking about that have that lower cost to acquire. And

Aaron Hassen 
So please enjoy.

MKJ 
to sell to and to show that we have the value because they see it. They have the value, they trust. Once we get those people and they group together in a community, then they basically sell for us and there’s where our word of mouth comes from.

Aaron Hassen 
It goes.

MKJ 
So it all comes right through to that. So what last piece of advice would you give the mischief makers listening to help them align with their true purpose in marketing and help us bring our profession back up to the trust that we used to enjoy?

Aaron Hassen
That’s right.

Aaron Hassen 
Yeah, I think this is a great time to be a marketer, honestly. I really do. Despite the headwinds and the challenges where maybe the CEOs and leadership has started to lose trust in their marketing leader, we see that in the statistics. I think it’s really a moment that we can shine in that the consumer really just wants an authentic relationship with us, with the brand.

And so there’s an opportunity there. There’s an opportunity to market in a human way. And we can all feel good about that. We can do to others and treat them the way we want to be treated. And I think there’s an integrity. And so you can feel good about how you do your job every day. And the change you’re able to enact in the market, how you’re able to help customers find what they’re looking for.

You know, I think there’s just a lot of pride that comes with that. And if you view marketing that way, you’ll start with quality from the front side and from the very beginning. And that will lead you to taking the right action. And sometimes it means making a difficult decision and doing things that are harder or have more of a long -term benefit versus a short -term benefit. But in the end, you know, those really will be much more rewarding to you and to the business.